Curse

Divineshadows · May 26, 2006, 10:34 PM // 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

How are elementalists useful in ways that other classes could never be? Why would you play an E/? instead of a M/E, N/E, or Mo/E if all you wanted was the utility spells?

Simple -- Ether Prodigy. It is the single best energy management skill in the game and is entirely useless to ele secondaries. If this skill was removed from the game or significantly weakened, then you honestly would never see elementalist primaries in PvP. This would be the final blow to the class.

Beat_Go_Stick · May 26, 2006, 10:49 PM // 22:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

Would you care to point out some official documentation that states that elementalists are supposed to be utility and support classes?

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/pr.../elementalist/

Only one false statement on that page and it's only false if you count a Deep Wound as damage and not a condition. Nowhere in there does it say "Elementalists are the best damage dealers in the game". The description A.Net provides sounds like a combination of utility and damage to me.

As for the rest, it will have to wait 'till Tuesday since I'm off work

Have a good 3-day weekend

ps - Mo/N was only my first (of 7 total) character. Guru doesn't allow you to list more than one...

Francis Crawford · May 26, 2006, 10:50 PM // 22:50

Elementalist isn't the only class that plays very differently in PvP than PvE. In PvE, necros are mainly about MMing and SS, neither of which is nearly as powerful in PvP. Tactics rocks in PvE and Hammer sux; in PvP it evidently is the other way around. Barrage dominates PvE for rangers; I'm not aware that it's a big factor in PvP.

In most of the cases I cited, a principal reason for the difference is the same -- number of enemies on the field. In PvE you typically are outnumbered by inferior enemies (even if they are higher level). Thus AoE such as SS or nukes is more useful in PvE than in PvP, and their are more corpses for MMs. And warriors need more defense, while hammer shutdown isn't as useful as it is in PvP.

And that's generic PvE; solo farming is of course a third matter. I routinely farm with AL 222, a -2 damage when enchanted shield, 230+ energy per minute (all but 50-90 of which is available for offense), and 1700+ points of self-healing per minute. I don't see any need to fix or buff that at all.

But I will confess that SS and Barrage make elementalists' generic PvE AoE pale by comparison, and I'd like to see that evened up.

Phades · May 26, 2006, 11:48 PM // 23:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beat_Go_Stick

http://www.guildwars.com/gameplay/pr.../elementalist/

Only one false statement on that page and it's only false if you count a Deep Wound as damage and not a condition. Nowhere in there does it say "Elementalists are the best damage dealers in the game". The description A.Net provides sounds like a combination of utility and damage to me.

As for the rest, it will have to wait 'till Tuesday since I'm off work

Have a good 3-day weekend

ps - Mo/N was only my first (of 7 total) character. Guru doesn't allow you to list more than one...

"Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession."

If your opening paragraph contains this information, it would only dillude people into thinking the class is designed to deal damage well. Instead it has a vast array of methods to deal damage poorly. Also, the fact remains that deep wound does deal virtual damage when applied and this kills people. You can not dismiss this aspect. You can not also dismiss how ranger damage, while bufffed, will outspike an elementalist before the elementalist can finish casting 1 lightning orb. Furthermore you must also aknowledge that elementalist damage is "what you see is what you get". There are no hidden tricks or combinations to make a fireball, lightning orb, obsidian flame, etc do more than its listed damage reliably ever. In fact, when it comes to the dot aoe spells, you have to engineer situations to cause them to do reliable damage at any given moment. Then there are other frustrations, such as any skill that applies a hex as a side effect, can not target a spirit. This causes a very large portion of ice skills that could be used to help thin out spirit groups to become relegated to only player targets.

The earth adding strength to allies bit made me laugh. Im still looking for any damage augmentation for any ally in any of the elementalist lines. The lightning line talks about specific "high powered" damage attacks. This sadly puts elementalists into direct competition with the real damage dealing classes. Fire talks about, wow more damage. Ill just move on to water which is the only line that begins to sound like a team support addition, but it loses credibility with the "and even protects allies from other forms of magical attack" bit. You get one skill, that is eliete, that protects the caster of the skill only against "other forms of magical attack" opposed to allies. Its like the writer started to write about elementalists, then finished the sentance while talking about ritualists, monks, or mesmers. It continues with this bit of false info "The primary Elementalist attribute, Energy Storage, gives the Elementalist the highest maximum Energy in the game. This makes other professions that use a lot of Energy, like the Monk or the Mesmer, natural choices for an Elementalist's secondary class." Now, considering the skill prices, the individual in question has some issues. The monk is the cheapest energy cost to effect character outside of spirit use or adrenaline use (this is assuming it excludes expertise reductions as well), while mesmer has the nifty inspiration line that does nice things like remove enchantments or hexes while giving the caster energy.

To be honest, the entire description was innacurate except for fire having lots of aoe damage and energy storage giving a higher base energy pool. Yet, you somehow pulled utility out of the following: "Elementalists can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession", "triggers quakes and volcanoes", "targeting specific foes with a focused, high-damage attack", "Fire magic is often considered the most purely destructive form, inflicting searing pain and damage on multiple enemies", and "inflicts freezing cold damage".

Do not try to kid anyone, even the existing skill ratios that dictate otherwise. It is the players that use it as a support class by manipulating the very few support skills that are somewhat unique to the profession with monk skills to create this situation. If ether prodigy didnt exist, people would not play the profession as a primary profession competitivly.

If you were to compare this to the warrior listing, you would find that the warrior isnt nearly as misleading, but it should have the following statements within it as well: ,"can inflict more damage in a single strike than any other profession.", "targeting specific foes with a focused, high-damage attack", "granting allies greater speed", and "even protects allies from other forms of attack".

To the other individual who was attempting to split hairs about energy and warriors, they do happen to get IAS skills along with the zealous mod, which is far better than the 1 pip of regeneration it is exchanged for. Combined with the option to change weapons as needed and adrenalin, you have a very flexable means of approaching a situation assuming you arent trying to stop and cast spells instead of melee.

Ensign · May 27, 2006, 01:15 AM // 01:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buoyancy

How are elementalists useful in ways that other classes could never be?

Ether Prodigy.

I would say Blinding Flash but I would stick that on a mesmer with attunements if Ether Prodigy didn't exist. You can put Wards on lots of different guys, and Deep Freeze works fine at 0 spec.

So really, the answer is Ether Prodigy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Then there are other frustrations, such as any skill that applies a hex as a side effect, can not target a spirit.

This was a recent change actually. A month or so ago you could cast hexes or enchantments on spirits all you wanted, the spirit would simply never recieve the effect. Now you can't even target the things. I don't think it was intentional, but this was a non-trivial nerf to the water line.

Peace,
-CxE

Trylo · May 27, 2006, 06:38 PM // 18:38

The ele was made not for damage over a minutes time. A war cannot outdamage an ele within the first 10 secs of battle, and that is all it takes for a good ele to kill an opponent. You might be able to get a pentrating attack in or sever artery in 10 secs, but that doesnt stack to a good highdealing SMART ele who knows who the other teammates are attacking. An ele and war work very well together by applying pressure to a monk with the war, then having a spike on an enemy caster, and he should be dead before an average monk would have their energy back. Its about teamwork.

Phades · May 28, 2006, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This was a recent change actually. A month or so ago you could cast hexes or enchantments on spirits all you wanted, the spirit would simply never recieve the effect. Now you can't even target the things. I don't think it was intentional, but this was a non-trivial nerf to the water line.

You have to forgive me, i missed out on the last "month" due to hardware complications.

Still, i find it rather stupid that the spirits will get affected by the damage component if they are in the radius of the effect, but you cant target them directly.

Ensign · May 28, 2006, 02:02 AM // 02:02

The only ele build I know of that can kill a single target in 10 seconds or less is a Mind Shocker with extra, non-standard attack skills - and even then, only if you don't start counting until the first Orb *finishes* casting.

A warrior has no problems killing a single target in less than 10 seconds using only skills commonly used in GvG. You can charge and unload an Eviscerate in 10 seconds if you want to play the theory game.

The windup time of the first Orb, and the time it takes a warrior to run to a target are roughly equivilent.

Peace,
-CxE

EDIT - a Mind Burner with PBAoE attacks could potentially kill a soft target in under 10 seconds.

Mandy Memory · May 28, 2006, 02:12 AM // 02:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trylo

The ele was made not for damage over a minutes time. A war cannot outdamage an ele within the first 10 secs of battle, and that is all it takes for a good ele to kill an opponent. You might be able to get a pentrating attack in or sever artery in 10 secs, but that doesnt stack to a good highdealing SMART ele who knows who the other teammates are attacking. An ele and war work very well together by applying pressure to a monk with the war, then having a spike on an enemy caster, and he should be dead before an average monk would have their energy back. Its about teamwork.

Keep your AS around 1 second and you can unload a eviscerate, and maybe follow it up with an executioners if you have an adrenal booster all within 10 seconds.

anonymous · May 28, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

A Warrior under no negative effects would hit more during 10 seconds. Cant forget the normal attacks in bulding up adrenaline. Most good warriors have some attack speed buff, so as stated above you should be able to get evicerate and possibly executioners off, plus the damage from the normal attacks.

Ensign · May 28, 2006, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mandy Memory

Keep your AS around 1 second and you can unload a eviscerate, and maybe follow it up with an executioners if you have an adrenal booster all within 10 seconds.

You don't need an adrenal booster. Axes get 11 hits in 10 seconds under Frenzy, which is enough to charge Evisc + Executioner's, unload them, and have another hit to spare. That's 515 with a Deep Wound, assuming you don't work in another adrenal skill hit (you can spare it), or any non-adrenal skills. If you time from the moment the first attack hits, you get 12 hits in the timeframe, making it around 554 plus Deep Wound, plus any additional skills.

Hammer is a bit more weird, as you get eight hits (nine if you start counting from first damage). You can't fit a good adrenal chain into the eight hit combo, but on the nine it works out nicely - Irresistible, four hits, Irresistible, Forceful, Heavy, Crushing. That comes out to 694 plus a Deep Wound just inside of a 10 second window - albeit with a second warmup.

For comparison, air guy is going to get in two Orbs (the first one at 0 cast time since you start counting once it casts), a Mind Shock, and three Strike equivilents into a 10 second window - slipping in a fourth strike if you get a ton of fast casts in the process, call it half a strike on average to be generous. That's 665 on average, no Deep Wound, double fast cast gear.

Note to get this result you need Orb, Strike, Mind Shock, and a supplemental attack - Javelin, or Arc Lightning + Enervating Charge. This flurry costs you roughly 65-70 energy depending on what you use.

As I said, a purely 10-second damage window Air guy is comparable to what an Eviscerate + Executioner's axe guy can put out, and is not in the same league as a hammer.

Peace,
-CxE

Ezekial Bain · May 28, 2006, 08:35 AM // 08:35

I am consistently baffled by the general "OMFG Ele's suxorz after teh AOE nerf" attitude.

I run a Pyromancer (with Monk secondary) and never have any problems getting into groups, as well as feeling I consistently out-damage most of my team mates (save perhaps a Minion Masters with a big collection of freaks). With 'Elemental Attunement' I rarely ever find I'm running low on energy, the combined damage of Incendary Bonds followed by Fireball is simply devestating a lot of the time (Incendary Bonds tends to go off exactly the time Fireball hits, giving a big AOE spike and also inflicting burning... OW!). With Elemental Attunement that effectively only costs 17 energy.

Also, everyone still loves Meteor Shower, and for real nasty death you can follow it up with the I.Bonds/Fireball spike.

Perhaps one of the reasons my Ele does so well is I carry a 20/20 staff, giving 20% chance that spells are cast twice as fast and that they recharge twice as fast. Having 1 in 5 Meteor Showers cast in 2.5 seconds is pretty nice and a 1 second fireball likewise hurts and comes out of nowhere.

I'm increasingly thinking that this "Ele's suck" attitude must be an America only thing. Everyone in Europe seemingly still likes and respects Elementalists (though there is still a prejudice towards anyone who isn't using fire magic).

Heck, myself and many others will still take Cynn/Orion/Argo along in their hench team. The many high-damage AOE spells Ele's have are just great for missions like Vizunah Square...

SPOILERS: Also, the Ele spell on the last two missions is just fantastic and one of the key abilities to defeating Shiro.

Undivine · May 28, 2006, 05:06 PM // 17:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by anonymous

A Warrior under no negative effects would hit more during 10 seconds..

That's quite an assumption. There are a myriad of ways to stop a warrior and every class has something that can do it. In fact, shutting down a warrior is very easy. One can interrupt an ele, but he does have some faster casting spells and most of them are part mesmer... they can use Mantra of Concentration or Resolve.

In fact, everyone who throws out numbers on the warrior's damage need a caeteris paribus clause. The warrior can potentially do that damage under sterile conditions on a target that isn't moving or doing anything to avoid it or having any of his friends do anything to protect him. When you factor in all the ways people try to survive, a proper ele does the damage. The whole point of spike, after all, is that you don't see it coming and it happens very suddenly. I can see a warrior spike coming a mile away.

For those who say that all the other classes are there to facilitate the warrior's damage, that is a very warrior-centric view of combat. Really, you can have the ele be the main damage dealer and your group can keep his energy high, his body clean of conditions, and his mind un-hexed. You can make most any class the central character.

Goonter · May 28, 2006, 05:52 PM // 17:52

If you want to place the test in subject into the heat of battle, eleys really are a glass cannon. Except, they are no more cannon than a warrior... which makes them just glass.

granted they have a range advantage. But shutting them down compared to the amount of effort and energy it takes to shutdown a warrior is more in favor to the warrior in my experance.

So they are both cannons, one has armor and one has range.
Monks typically lose more energy healing a warrior threat over an elementalist. Its also more expensive to keep a eley alive and properly casting than a warrior. Counterers typically lose more energy debilitaing a warrior than an elementalist. ...the only thing a eley has going for them is the fact that they are underdogs. People prep for the warrior threat because its real. The elementalst is a "trick" that subverts the normal defences. Id put money on it, if elementalist were to ever become popular again, it wouldnt last long. Once the idea is to build a defence counter to an eley, that build is doomed completely. No player skill, just paper beats rocks doomed.
Example: look at the longivity of lighting spike (or any eley strong build) vs. iway.

(im talking pvp, in pve dealing damage in large numbers with eleys still rock)

Phades · May 28, 2006, 07:53 PM // 19:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

In fact, everyone who throws out numbers on the warrior's damage need a caeteris paribus clause. The warrior can potentially do that damage under sterile conditions on a target that isn't moving or doing anything to avoid it or having any of his friends do anything to protect him. When you factor in all the ways people try to survive, a proper ele does the damage. The whole point of spike, after all, is that you don't see it coming and it happens very suddenly. I can see a warrior spike coming a mile away.

With 2s to upwards of 15s cast times, factoring in the same style of debuffs parrellel to what a warrior would face, you can see an elementalist comming from the next state. Kiting works for both, however you get the luxury of total mitigation from some ele skills through dodging opposed to some mitigation through warrior kiting. Stop trying to examine one under sterile conditions without doing the same to the other.

As for the 1s cast time skills available to an ele, the majority of them are outpaced by a warrior without using any skills what so ever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undivine

For those who say that all the other classes are there to facilitate the warrior's damage, that is a very warrior-centric view of combat. Really, you can have the ele be the main damage dealer and your group can keep his energy high, his body clean of conditions, and his mind un-hexed. You can make most any class the central character.

Except under the same conditions the warrior outperforms the ele, so what is the point? I havent seen a "ele spike" group in pvp in ages, not since chain lightning was nerfed. This alone should speak volumes as to what is actually effective to use. If you dont believe me, use obs mode yourself and count the number of teams that use more than 2 elementalists. I bet you wont even need 1 finger.

Bokocasso · May 28, 2006, 08:42 PM // 20:42

Guys, I've been reading your suggestions about how to improve this wonderful profession, and frankly speaking I find most of them rather imbalanced. To be honest, elementalists are quite useful but on the other hand, they are kinda useful mostly in PvE. ANet are trying to nerf things that are imba, but I believe they should take into consideration boosting some skills as well.

To begin with, the elementals are four and I've seen sever skills that people use in pvp. There are some, that are going to be used... never, because of their inefficiency. The casting time is really a problem, any migrane mesmer can shut down completely any ele. The fact that eles don't do that much dmg as they are said to be doing is a good reason to boost the casting time. If you are lucky enough to cast a spell without getting interrupted you can probably kill lots of npc's, but how about real people that can actually MOVE and avoid the meteors? ... Boosting is gona help, and do you people think that we are gona see any of it soon?

Energy storage - there is nothing special to be mentioned here, I agree that there must be a convenient energy management skill, that does not cause exaustion or kills you when it ends, or at least not an elite one. And a simple improvement with the amout of energy you can "carry" with you would be helpful. For example 120 energy with 4 pips.

The danger zone of skills. The range they have - this is a great minus to the destructive power of elementalists - low range. Anyone can run away from an incoming meteor shower, but what if they couldn't run away without at least getting hit once... ? Just some ideas, nothing else but a "nearby" range to all spells would be appreciated. And I think it still would be imbalanced tho.

I can't say I am not satisfied with the defensive part of the elemental skills, but a few additions would be nice to have.

On a second thought, imagine all the things you want to see improved... get improved. Anyone would want to play elementalists. It would be imbalanced. A slight touch of boost will be nice.

Zoolooman · May 28, 2006, 08:45 PM // 20:45

You could fix the elementalist problem in PvE by reversing the "AI update" that made most AoE fire skills impotent.

Wildi · May 28, 2006, 09:09 PM // 21:09

The biggest problem is: Eles don't do shit damage with elemental spells to lvl 20-28 enemys.

AND in gw factions you don't fight against lvl 3 enemys (whee my fireball did 300 dmg), you fight lvl 20-28 mobs (omg my 100 dmg fireball didn't do 30 dmg)

Necros have shadow damage, its great, 40 shadow damage deals usually 40 shadow damage or more to lvl 3 and 40 shadow damage or more to lvl 28 mobs.

Eles don't have this. E/N anyone ?

Bokocasso · May 28, 2006, 09:18 PM // 21:18

Shadow damage ignores armor. And lv 20-28 enemies have elemental defence. Oh and, fire skills are not impotent, meteor shower still helps nuking. The greates use of eles in GvG is defence now. Their capacity makes them great monk supporters. But I don't think fixing the "AI update" is going to make eles better in pvp...

Zoolooman · May 29, 2006, 01:20 AM // 01:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bokocasso

Shadow damage ignores armor. And lv 20-28 enemies have elemental defence. Oh and, fire skills are not impotent, meteor shower still helps nuking. The greates use of eles in GvG is defence now. Their capacity makes them great monk supporters. But I don't think fixing the "AI update" is going to make eles better in pvp...

It won't fix them in PvP--for that, the air and water lines must be examined.

But it would be a great step forwards. Currently a good trapper will deal more damage to massed PvE enemies than a good elementalist. Doesn't that strike you as a bit silly?